Noemi: Okay, before we begin with the interview, I want to ask for your permission to be

recorded.

Khidar: Sure, I agree to be recorded for this interview.

Noemi: Okay, so just state your name for the record.

Khidar: My name is Khidar Saab.

Noemi: And what would be the best way to describe yourself?

Khidar: My parents are Lebanese American. Well, they’re Lebanese. They would consider

themselves full Lebanese and not all American. I would consider myself Lebanese American,

because half of my life was spent in Lebanon, the other half was spent here.

Noemi: Where were you born?

Khidar: I was born in Lebanon,

Noemi: So, you’re a first-generation immigrant?

Khidar: I am a first-generation immigrant.

Noemi: And why did you agree to this interview?

Khidar: I agreed to this interview because the topic of discussion is relevant, and I think it’s

something that’s not necessarily talked a lot about, especially in the community where I grew up

as a child. I feel pretty good doing this interview. I think it’s something relevant for discussion

and an interesting topic to say the least.

Noemi: You said you were born in Lebanon, how long have you lived in New York City?

Khidar: So I had a bit of a diverse upbringing, if you want to say it that way, I grew up in

Lebanon from birth until about three years old, and then I immigrated to the United States withmy parents during the peak of the Lebanese civil war in the 1990s give or take, it was coming off

the heels of the civil war ending and so and the other war beginning. So, we moved here to the

United States. I studied pre-K, kindergarten, first grade, second grade here, and then moved back

from the US to Lebanon, from third grade, fourth grade, fifth grade, until my first year of high

school, actually.

Noemi: And how long is that?

Khidar: So, it was from the age of eight to 16, and then from 16 until now, I’m 35 I’ve been in the

US, so about 19 years in United States consecutively.

Noemi: And so can you describe where your family’s from?

Khidar: So, I grew up in the southern part of Lebanon. It is a small village in the mountains. It’s

called Yaroun, and I grew up there. My parents were born and raised there, as are my

grandparents and rest of my family. They never almost, at least, aside from my parents, there’s a

few people that never left the village itself, and it’s pretty isolated, since it’s in the mountains, so

it doesn’t see that much compared to other places. It sees more immigration than others,

especially since almost everybody there kind of made their trades outside of the village, because

there’s literally nothing else there, but even so with that, they kind of carried their beliefs with

them wherever they went. Other villages aren’t nearly as fortunate. In fact, they almost never

leave the village or the south at all to travel the rest of the country, as small as it is.

Noemi: And what values were you raised with?

Khidar: So, in the area that I grew up in- I grew up in a village that was divided between

Christians and Muslims, and my parents, especially my grandparents, and my upbringing in

general was based on Islam and so it wasn’t as, I want to say, traditional or strict as other

countries or nations, but it became that way after the year 2001 I think. They kind of took a lot of

beliefs and ideals from Iran and Saudi Arabia, and they applied it locally, and they kind of stuck

to it.

Noemi: What about values surrounding views and gender roles.Khidar: So the idea of gender roles in Lebanon is pretty rigid. They have very clear definitions

on them, and they don’t deviate from them in any way, shape or form. Nor do they allow

deviation of their assigned gender roles. Everyone is expected to fit into a specific shape, and

they don’t accept or understand any anything that doesn’t align with that. I was raised with a very

traditional viewpoint of gender roles. My parents, till this day, have very, very defined gender

roles, and they aggressively apply them to their lives, as does everybody else from the south of

Lebanon really.

Noemi: Could you briefly describe the gender roles in Lebanon?

Khidar: Sure, men are expected to be the providers. They’re supposed to be stoic. You know

you’re not supposed to, I don’t want to say, have feelings, but you’re not supposed to, like, cry or

do things like that. It’s seen as effeminate. Women, on the other hand, are supposed to be the

emotional ones. They’re also supposed to be the caregivers for kids. It’s very rare for them to

have jobs or be in any position of authority or power in some capacity. I think, in fact, growing

up, I never had a single high school, middle school principal or vice principal that was a female.

It was exclusively males. There were female teachers, but they were very, very uncommon and

rare. It was mostly seen as a man’s role to be in a position of leadership. Women were just

supposed to be caregivers. In fact, there was only one pharmacist that was a female in the entire

two cities that I grew up in or villages that I grew up in, and the only reason she was allowed to

be that is because she wasn’t Lebanese. She was Greek, so she wasn’t really seen as someone that

they needed to keep an eye on. I guess if you can call it that.

Noemi: So there was more freedom from gender norms if you were not one of the one member

of the culture?

Khidar: So that’s a good way of asking. It’s an interesting question, I think, because it makes it

seem that way. But in reality, they just saw her as an outlier, and therefore she was always

looked down upon because of it. Yes, she wasn’t really seen as an equal in any way. In fact, she

was seen as someone who was uncontrollable, and therefore something was wrong with her.

Even though she was a successful pharmacist who was probably smarter than anybody else

around, but because of the position she was in, she wasn’t seen as, I don’t want to say normal. Infact, I firmly believe the only reason she got the pharmacy to open up at all is because her

husband was the dentist, who was the only dentist in, you know, the entire south, really. So, as a

result of that, she was able to open her own pharmacy, and even then, it was under his last name,

not hers, in any way. So it was mostly because of him. I think it wouldn’t have thrived any other

way.

Noemi: So to them having gender roles, it’s like something good reserved for their own people?

Khidar: They would see it as that way. They would see it as that way, because their perception of

it is, this is something that we need to hold on to. This is something they want to preserve. And it

would be very, I guess, weird for them to see anything that didn’t stick to their definition of it,

you’re never had female cab drivers, never had female bus drivers. It just didn’t exist, even in like

hospitals, I only knew one female doctor, and she couldn’t practice in the south where I grew up,

her husband could, but she wasn’t allowed to. She had to move to the big city, to the Capitol, in

fact, to be able to open her own office, because it was- she wasn’t going to get any client

otherwise.

Noemi: And how did this views in general affect your own values?

Khidar: So I had- because I think I was very fortunate to have been raised during my early years

in the United States, as infrequent as they were, and because I was exposed to diversity. Initially,

early on in my life, I was less rigid in my gender role beliefs than my- you know, towns folk,

towns people, because they were not exposed to it in many cases, or if they were, they kind of

held fast to them, and they didn’t really allow for any deviation they would kind of perceive the

roles that they were given as legitimate and valid, and therefore, if you were to object to them or

question them, or even have any sort of flexibility in them, as something that was too quote,

unquote, westernized for a small town, like, for instance, certain outfits that women could wear

versus outfits they couldn’t wear, who they can hang out with. Like, a woman was almost never

allowed to have male friends because that was seen as something that just wouldn’t exist. And

vice versa. Men were not allowed to have a lot of women friends unless they were like their

significant others, or they’re counting someone like they’re planning an engagement with the

woman. It would never be something as just casual friendship in any way shape or form. Theykind of see that as, I want to say, traditional. But they also, they definitely wouldn’t allow for any

fluidity in those options at all, in any way shape or form.

Noemi: So, when you say you were exposed to less traditional gender roles here in New York

around what year was that?

Khidar: So, this was 1990 I want to say 93 until about 98 because that’s when I left the United

States again. So, I grew up in Chelsea, and in fact, the principal of my middle school, or, I guess,

not really Middle Schoo- it’s pre K, her name was Miss Steele, and she was an African American

woman that would never even happen in Lebanon in any way, shape or form. Aside from just the

gender, the race would also be an issue. They would never let that happen. It would, it was, it

would be impossible for her to sort of have that role in any way. And I also had female teachers

too, that helped, kind of, it’s interesting because in classrooms United States, you’re allowed to

have females and males sitting next to each other. When I was growing up in 2000s in Lebanon.

They had just taken over traditional Islamic values from Iran. So even then, the classroom was

divided right down the middle, men on one side, women on the other side. So how was it before.

they so- it’s also it was also still seen, even though they took values from Iran initially, and

Lebanon is more- I want to say, westernized or open minded than other Middle Eastern

countries. They still didn’t allow for any sort of flexibility in that. I think earlier, maybe before I

was born, it was definitely possible, especially my village, when they had Christians who took

European values and applied them, they would definitely be able to, you know, have more

flexibility, I guess, and not so be so rigid with it. But then when- after the occupation of Lebanon

ended in 2001, traditional values kind of came back in full swing, and people fully embraced

them, they went from being, you know, more open minded, to completely closed off, they

weren’t even up for discussion anymore. And I think it was, it was seen, or they would rather

justify it as something traditional to hold on to. But it was mostly just the status quo of the time

going on, really.

Noemi : Who was occupying Lebanon at the time?

Khidar: It was under the Israeli occupation,Noemi: And so you went from being exposed to New York gender roles to then that type of

gender roles with the Israeli occupation and then fully Islamic gender roles?

Khidar: Well, the Israeli occupation never really interfered that much with gender roles, and I

only saw it briefly for maybe two or three years. It wasn’t that relevant. They really didn’t

interfere as much as they should have. But there was, I want to say, more flexibility under the

occupation. But then after the occupation ended, and especially in the south where I grew up,

Islam was in full swing. The gender roles, whatever they were, if they were blurred in any

capacity, it was completely black and white by the end of that. In fact, people that would they

almost had radical changes, where they would go from, you know, wearing jeans and T shirts to

that being completely disregarded and they have to wear like, I don’t want to say- less revealing

clothing, but definitely baggier, looser, more Islamically traditional outfits,

Noemi: And I don’t know if we touched on, how did that impact your view?

Khidar: So, I was always seen as an odd character, even among my peers, because I didn’t

necessarily see gender that way. I had no issue hanging out with females. I had no issue

befriending them. I had no issue touching them- or in a sense that would be something extremely

outlawed. And my parents- and even my mother to this day, would never shake a man’s hand in

any capacity. And it was the same in school when I was growing up, women were not allowed to

touch men in any way, shape or form, not even a casual hug, not a handshake, nothing, unless

they were either wearing gloves if they have to. In extreme cases- have a designate a man to for

instance, when I mean… this is a bit of a outdated worldview, but in class, sometimes, if you had

to discipline a student for being rowdy or something they still had, how do I say this in the right

way? They had ways of disciplining students that involved physical contact, and so the females

were not allowed to interact with the male students. The teachers, at least in any way, shape or

form. They would have to call on another male from another classroom to come and discipline

the student as a result of that, because they had to adhere to that specific role. And it’s funny,

because I remember one of the teachers I grew up with, she taught me for a few years. She was

raised in South Africa, so she grew up in a very nontraditional environment, and then when she

was forced and shoehorned into this role of being a traditional quote, unquote, female teacher,

and you can tell she didn’t really believe in it in any way. But even then, I remember theycriticized her because she would wear pumps, and they thought that was like the most outlandish

thing ever, and they would circulate rumors about her, because of the shoes because she was not

wearing what they considered to be the dress code of women at the time.

Noemi: So this views, this very conservative Muslim traditional views that they had on gender

roles at any point in your life, I’m assuming, especially when you were younger, even though you

were exposed to more less traditional or more liberal views here in New York and earlier in your

life, I’m assuming at some point you shared those views, or you sort of abided by them?

Khidar: Yeah, definitely. I think they were ingrained in me in my teenage years, for sure,

because I also became of the same mindset of- of, you know, not touching women, not

interacting with women, not playing soccer with women, even, which was weird, going from

being able to do that school to not being able to do that in junior high, you know. In high school,

even here in the States, it was- it definitely impacted me. And it took, I want to say, maybe two

or three years of living here for me to finally, kind of, I want to say, Get out of my shell. The

same applied to my siblings. They were, they were brought up in that very, very specific way.

And I think having sisters ultimately helped us be more flexible. I think because we, at least my

mother, tried to apply the same traditional values to my sisters, and I was one of the people that

objected to it, because I was like, they shouldn’t have to restrict their clothing as much as you

want them to. They’re just kids, and they were, but she had a hard time rationalizing it, and it was

from a lot of reasons. Number one, I don’t think would have been healthy for them. And number

two, there was going to be a bullying factor, especially in, you know, middle school. I will say

that they did affect me. It limited my interaction with females. In fact, you could never interact

one on one and the female, and I would be the first person to object to that. You must have

somebody else present, either another female or another guy or two other females. It was never

going to be something where you can sit down and have a private conversation. It wasn’t an idea

I would have entertained in any way, shape or form. And I think a lot of it has to do with the

upbringing. Because number one, my parents would definitely forbid me from even talking to

girls, even ones my age or that I knew from childhood, let alone, you know- go hang out with

them or anything like that. It would have to be, I’m going to go see their brother, and they just

happened to me in the room. And even then, their parents were also strictly monitoring our

interactions, nothing, not for anything nefarious, but it was this kind of unspoken rule aboutyou’re not supposed to be in the same room as somebody else that’s not the same gender as you,

and therefore, you know, you must have another female present in the room. Otherwise, it’s

weird, and- which is interesting, because my closest friends were raised and born in America, but

then they had to conform to that, and they did for a long while. Eventually, the females of that

family and my friends- they ended up objecting to it entirely, and then they were seen as too

Americanized for everybody else in their family, and they were kind of blacklisted as a result of

that. Unfortunately, even me, I was seen as too Americanized, because I had given up those

values that they raised me with, and I didn’t agree with them anymore. I had been exposed, I

think, to more females in high school than I did in school, because, once again, they were so

strictly divided that there was no room for interaction in any way. Across the board, you were

not allowed to be in the same room as them. You were not allowed to talk to them one on one.

You couldn’t touch them. But then in the United States, there was more, I want to say, Freedom

regarding that. And so that alleviated a bit of the traditional views that I had, but even then, it

took maybe, like three or four years just for me to overcome the I want to say- I don’t say

indoctrination, but that’s exactly what it was that I had been exposed to as a teenager growing up

there,

Noemi: And what was the process to overcome that?

Khidar: It was weird, because initially I wouldn’t have agreed to what I think, but because

Americans didn’t understand, at least in my high school, where I was coming from, about, you

know, not shaking hands with girls, not giving them hugs. They didn’t rationalize it as something

related to gender role or something I grew up with. They just saw it as me being shy and

introverted, and that pushed me in the direction to be more open minded about it and having

more female teachers. In fact, I think one of the biggest factors was going to gym class with

females and seeing them be as athletic as most of the guys were, it helped, because I had never

seen that in my life. Usually, whenever we had gym in Lebanon, the guys would be playing

soccer, and the girls would be sitting on the sidelines watching. They were not allowed to play. It

was just never going to happen. Granted, in some parts, I think they did have an all-female

soccer team, but once again, they were always seen as less talented players. And I think being

exposed to that here in the States changed it for me. I think a big factor in that was my English

teacher, probably Mrs. Bittman, because she definitely was an assertive female, and she kind ofnoticed I was kind of struggling with both worldviews, and she definitely helped with it by

placing me with female classmates during projects, because she knew I was very averse to the

interaction, and she kind of helped- I want to say, open my eyes to the reality of it, because even

though my views were- they were just outright wrong, I didn’t see them that way because I had

been raised to see them as correct, and then when I finally kind of started putting two and two

together, I realized, okay, maybe this isn’t the correct way to think about people, because number

one, it’s hurtful to them, but it’s also hurtful to me. It’s impacting me in a negative way, because

I’m being too rigid with my interaction, and I’m kind of only seeing one side of the story, so to

speak.

Noemi: What was the way that you specifically thought about it?

Khidar: I always it’s weird, because when you grew up in a in a strictly Islamic community,

especially where I grew up in the South, the women are seen as, I don’t want to say inferior, but

definitely seen as lesser than men in some capacity, even like it goes as far as legality, if you had

a car accident and there’s two female witnesses, your testimony is worth less than one single

male’s witness testimony. And in most cases, women were blamed for any accidents they have,

for, you know, sometimes just asinine reasons, honestly- like when my mother had a car accident

I was with her, she was blamed; that her hormones flared up, and therefore she drove into a

lamppost, and that was kind of what it was. Whereas, if it was a guy who had the accident, it was

the car’s fault, there’s no way he made a mistake in some capacity.

Noemi: Would you say they thought of women as less then? Or inferior?

Khidar: I think that’s an interesting thing to look at, because they were definitely- I want to say,

inferior. They wouldn’t admit that, but they would see them as that, even as far as, like, you

know, if you have a family will; Women are never going to get as much as a guy is on

inheritance and stuff like that. They would never own property on their own. They must have a

husband. The only female I knew that had a job in the Islamic community I grew up in was a

widow, and she was a teacher, so she wouldn’t even be allowed to run for city office or anything

like that. It was just never going to happen. It’s interesting, because growing up, I had a lot of

tutors that were from the Christian side of my village, and most of them were females. Theywere allowed to teach and tutor, and, you know- it was their own business that they did in the

Islamic part. If a woman was in the store operating a cash register. It’s because her husband is on

lunch or something like that. It was never going to be that she ran it on her own to make money

on her own, that kind of thing. It was the husband’s property. He was just letting her have it for a

little bit.

Noemi: So, they were seeing as more of a “helper” or assistant?

Khidar: For sure, for sure, they were definitely seen as helpers or assistance. They were kind of

shoehorned to this gender role as a result of that, where they were seen as; the caregivers, they

raised kids, they can’t make any decisions without the man’s approval, of course, they can’t buy a

car. They can’t, you know, express themselves. It was never seen as something to be allowed or

enabled, whereas for guys, it was seen as they had to be the person to provide for the family.

They had to be fit into this role where, if you can’t provide for a family and have a wife and kids,

that something is obviously wrong with you, and that’s something that I still dealing with till this

day, where, because I’m at my age (I’m 35 and I’m unmarried) my parents see it as this huge

stain on their lives, where something is wrong with me, inherently for not being married at 21

like they wanted me to, because that’s how they were brought up. They were brought up to

believe that this is the correct age to do this at. And in fact, I have cousins who are married off as

teenagers to grown men, because after a certain threshold, they’re seen as- okay, now you’re too

old and something is obviously you’re quote unquote defective because you’re not conforming to

their to their ideals. I remember had a friend in high school, and we stayed in touch throughout

our adult lives, where she was a very successful pharmacist in Australia. She was probably one

of the most successful pharmacists in Australia, because she was featured on many magazines

covers at the time. And I remember sometimes we would talk, and she would literally be

miserable because she was unmarried at 28 and she was- she thought it was harder and harder for

her to find a husband, and the moment she found a doctor to marry her, she quit her job

immediately. So, she went from making more money than he was in a few- you know, months,

then he’s making in a few years. But because he was the man of the house, therefore she was

like, okay, now I’m gonna quit my career, sacrifice, you know, six years of pharmacy school, my

literal PhD, just to go ahead and start kids and have a family and never work again. And it was- itwas weird, because I think they wouldn’t have allowed her to make more men than him anyway,

even if she wanted, because that’s also seen as weird and taboo.

Noemi: Would you say, I know it’s absolutely, not as extreme as it would be in a Muslim

community or Lebanon, but would you say some of those characteristics of gender roles and

misogyny are still pressing in New York as well?

Khidar: In New York, I would say United States. I would say yes, for sure. I mean, recently,

there was a community of Lebanese people in Dearborn Michigan that had celebrated, just

recently burning a gay flag. It was seen as this like celebration for them to do so and a sign of

like rebellion, which is weird, because I know for sure in that community, and even where I grew

up, there was closeted gay men that were just never allowed to sort of express themselves that

way, either for fear of persecution, because that is a very valid fear that they would have to be

exposed to, or because, even internally among themselves, they would think something was

wrong with them, inherently, for having those feelings or for having those reactions. Because for

sure, I mean, I know a few people, two people, in fact, one of them was a man who enjoyed and

felt comfortable dressing as a woman, but he could never do that around his traditional Islamic

family. They would just outright, you know, banish him, or even worse, and I knew one man

specifically who a closeted homosexual, but he had a wife and kids, but he just enjoyed the

interactions with men that he did [romantic relationships with men]. And he had to go to then

you know, go where the capital is just to be able to live that way [openly gay] even briefly, and

then return to his family and pretend like everything was normal, because he was never gonna be

allowed to express himself to that capacity. And at that point, they kind of see it as okay, you

fulfilled your role as a man, you had a wife and kids, you’re quote, unquote normal, and it’s this

internal conflict that he probably had to deal with, because he had to fit two roles. One is the role

he is comfortable fitting. One is the role he’s forced to fit into. I think misogyny still is prevalent

till this day, in Lebanon, to a lesser extent, in the in the families of immigrants specifically like

myself who grew up here. But even so, some parents don’t deviate from that any way, shape or

form. Even my parents, they want my sisters until recently, at least they wanted them to you

know, have a husband, have kids. You don’t have to worry about getting a job. You shouldn’t be

working. You know, even something as simple as cleaning dishes or cooking, men are supposed

to clean dishes and cook, because that’s a woman’s job, and that’s something my mother raisesmy brothers with, actually; where she forbids them from even washing out a dirty cup, because

she’s like, that’s not your role; I should be the one doing the dishes, I’m the woman. And they

kind of enable that, in a sense, because it gives them a reason to be lazy, I guess. But also, it’s

how she was raised. She was raised to perceive herself in a specific way. And mind you, she has

a college education here in the states she has a bachelor’s degree, she gave that up, because she

sees it inherently as wrong. To a lesser extent, she’s more open minded now about the queer

community in general, because we live in Chelsea, so she’s exposed to it, so she sympathizes

with them, but she doesn’t agree with them at all in any way, shape or form.

Noemi: Well, I’ve heard this theory that homophobia, especially against men, is sort of very

intertwined with misogyny. Because I don’t know if you have seen this, but a lot of the times,

people are a lot more homophobic towards gay men than they are to gay women, and part of that

is the fact that they fetishize gay woman. But there’s also the fact that when it’s very intertwined

with misogyny, because they hate a man for willingly stooping himself down (according to

them) and making themselves more feminine. When to them, feminine is lesser than, and a man

willingly becoming lesser than, in their eyes, it’s so horrible

Khidar: It’s absolutely true. It’s an it’s an outdated view that I think my people unintentionally

copied from ancient Greece, where they would see the they would see the roles, depending on,

you know, especially you’re absolutely right, especially in terms of, like men and men together-

they would definitely see one of them as being more effeminate, and therefore you are the

perpetrator in this, in this situation. I think it didn’t help, especially back home, that a lot of times

because they were exposed to not touching females- and in fact, the culture promoted men

kissing each other [platonic male friends] on the cheek rather regularly during handshakes and

hugs. That it would kind of not help with… If you have any repressed homosexual desires, it

wouldn’t help you at all to be exposed to you know- you’re allowed to be intimate publicly with

men, for lack of a better word, but you’re definitely not allowed to have that with women. So, it

kind of represses it even more, because you don’t want to be seen as too affectionate or too

effeminate. You have to fill this role of Men. Have to have beards, you have to learn how to use

a gun. You’re not allowed to enjoy arts and crafts and poetry and things like that because that

was seen as effeminate. Yeah, and any man who did they were for sure question on their

sexuality.Noemi: For the next question, I wanted to ask you, to what extent do you agree with the values

of your culture, the way they see men and women, and the expectations that come with being

born a female or a male?

Khidar: So initially, being raised in Lebanon as a guy, I would have, and to an extent, until my

teen years, agreed with the viewpoints that I was exposed to, because I was it was life was kind

of put on easy mode for me as a guy, whereas I was taught how to drive, I was taught how to

hunt, I was allowed to enjoy sports. I was allowed to ride bikes throughout the town, whereas,

literally, like any female I knew, there were just expected to be house cleaners in many cases,

and they weren’t allowed to engage in, like, playing games until, you know, they had finished

their chores. It’s also interesting to note, while I was growing up, there I was, I won’t say it was a

little sheltered, but I kind of was, and I didn’t enjoy like playing soccer as much as my peers, and

so therefore I wasn’t exposed to sunlight as much, and therefore I was seen as more feminine

because I was whiter than my peers, who were more tan. But if a woman’s exposed to sunlight,

like my aunt, for instance, she’s naturally very brown skinned, and she was always seen as

someone who spends too much time outdoors so she’s sort of this, like savage, compared to, you

know, my mother, who was very light skinned, and she was always seen as this fair skinned

maiden, so to speak. So… it’s really interesting to see it that way, I think to an extent, it’s a bit

more relaxed now, I want to say, but it’s still I mean, if you’re a guy growing up in Lebanon, you

have it pretty much on easy mode. Honestly, you’re expected to succeed in a career, you’re

expected to start a family, you’re expected to provide for your family. Sure, that’s a

responsibility, but the bar is much higher for women who have to choose either between one or

the other. I think, yeah.

Noemi: And, when you were younger, did you agree with those values? And what about now?

Khidar: When I was younger, I definitely agree to them, because they were all I was exposed to

to an extent. And even when you were exposed to United States education like I was after a

couple of years, and them just hammering those ideals into you, kind of just believe in them to an

extent, even if you’re just playing along. I think having sisters definitely changed my view,

because I saw how differently they were being treated compared to me and my brothers. And

having female friends also definitely impacted that, because sometimes I would tell them, let’s goplay together, or something like that, and their parents would object and say “No, you can’t hang

out with girls” And regardless of the intention, we were just children, but they would never allow

that to happen. She was expected to be indoors, studying, doing something like that, whereas I

was supposed to be outdoors, out and about, you know, doing guy things, quote, unquote, as now

as an adult, I definitely don’t agree with those real views, because I think a lot of females are

hindered back home because of those expectations, and a lot of legitimate, genuine bonds are

also hindered between the two genders because they’re not allowed to flourish and blossom.

Noemi: So now you do not agree with those values. What would you say are your values now?

Khidar: Now I think I’m a lot more open minded about things. I definitely don’t agree with the

values at all. And I think it’s, it’s, it’s very subtle here in United States compared to back home,

that misogyny does exist here to an extent. It’s not as you know, in your face as it is in Lebanon

or any other Middle Eastern country, really, but it still exists here. For sure. It’s more… I want to

say, insidious, but it is It’s more subtle because you don’t notice it until you look for it, whereas

back home, it’s very much in your face, this is expected, and everybody goes along with it. Here,

everybody does go along with it, but they don’t realize it. And then if you sort of kind of object

to the quote unquote patriarchy, then you’re seen as a quote unquote feminist, when in reality,

you’re both human beings just trying to get the same exact

thing.

Noemi: Yeah, it’s actually funny, because a lot of people do look down on Middle Eastern

countries and say “Oh, we’re so much better than them, because women have freedom, and

women do have freedom. Well, like, I’m not gonna take away from that, but they are still seen a

bit as like an assistant or a helper to a man”

Khidar: Yeah, it’s growing up, we always had this belief about American women, that they were

all sort of wild animals because they didn’t dress up properly and they didn’t behave. I had a

friend who moved to he visited Colombia for a week, literally one week. And because he’s never

left Lebanon in his life, and he was first exposed to women in swimsuits for the first time in his

life at 32 years old, and I was a teenager at the time, and he lasted literally 24 hours. And he went

back to Lebanon right away, and he was like, this is just a land of, you know, Misery, Thewomen don’t have any shame. They’re all out in bikinis and swimsuit there, and they’re

underwear all day. And that was his perception of something so simple, such as going to the

beach. But he had never been exposed to that, because we didn’t have a beach. We grew up in the

mountains, that kind of thing, and engage in that kind of activity, whereas here, because women

back home are always wearing these overly covering outfits, they’re also seen as opressed and to

an extent, they may be, but some of them willingly will. I mean, I had a teacher in junior high,

She lived and grew up in Michigan and moved to Lebanon just to be able to dress up a specific

way that what she believed was conforming to her religious ideals. And that’s fine and fair, but

it’s rare to see the other way around. Usually, when they move to United States, they realize,

okay, maybe I don’t have to wear a scarf all day, or I’m allowed to choose. And back home, they

did not have a choice.

Noemi: I mean, I’ve heard that some women do enjoy dressing modest to the extent that, like

most of the women, dress modest because they want to “save” their looks, like their hair, their

body, like for their husband, or for God and their husband or something like that…

Khidar: That’s definitely a valid point. They do dress up that way. In more extreme cases, they

even wear, I mean, think about it, they’re wearing so many layers in the summer just to cover up

their ankles and wrists all the time, and in some cases, gloves. And while I admire their courage

to do so, because it’s definitely not an easy choice to do at the same time, it’s, in a lot of cases, it’s

all they know. So they don’t know what else lies beyond just, you know, covering up that way.

And granted, they do have the freedom to do so, because they can just leave the south and move

to a city and dress up however they want. But a lot of them won’t do that because their lives are

in the South. They have families down there, and they have, you know, husbands and wives and

whatever that they have to, like, abide by. And it’s kind of the expectation that’s forced on them,

so to speak, to an extent, to another extent, it’s they choose it willingly, because the traditional

outfit that they became the all the rage when I was growing up was called a burqa, which is

actually not Islamic. It’s culturally from Pakistan, I believe. But they adopted it into an Islamic

traditional outfit.

Noemi: What is a Burqa?”Khidar: It’s this huge black gown. It looks like a tent. I hate to describe it that way, but looks like

a tent. It’s a big it’s a big black tent, and it covers you from head to literally, to your toes and you,

in many cases, it would cover your entire face, except for your eyes. And it’s a traditional, I

think, I think Afghan or Pakistani outfit, but because they adopted that outfit from, you know,

quote, unquote, Islamic culture, then it became sort of the trendy thing to wear for women that

were trying to prove how more religious they were than the other women who didn’t wear that.

And so it’s interesting, because they made it sort of a competition, whereas I’m more modest than

you are, and I’m gonna wear less, you know, revealing outfits than you are. And it kind of

became a thing where it kind of lost the meaning of religious significance. It became more of a

personal competition.

Noemi: An ego thing?

Khidar: Exaclty, I Had an aunt who dressed like that for years, and then she moved to Michigan,

then moved back to Lebanon, and she doesn’t wear any of that anymore. She completely tossed

away her scarf, and she was one of the most religious women I knew. But I think eventually,

when you get behind her, for that reason, it loses its luster, in a sense.

Noemi: And how would you describe your values on gender roles now? Like, How is your

relationship to women and your own like masculine and feminine energy? Let’s say,

Khidar: When I was younger, I would have never imagined encouraging my sisters to go to

college until, you know, because it was always we were always raised to expect that we’re going

to get married first or my sister’s going to get married first, because usually women back home

are married off sooner than the guys. And when I moved here and pursued my own education, I

realized that I would like them to have their own education as well. My parents initially objected

to that idea. They wanted my sister married off at 18, and I was vehemently against it, because

she had just finished high school, and they were like, she graduated high school. This is great.

This is enough learning. Let’s get her married. And then I objected to it completely. She was on

board because she didn’t know any better. But then, now that she has a college education, she’s

more set in her future, so to speak. And now, even on her own, she realizes, okay, if I do get

married, I would like a husband who wants me to work, doesn’t want me just to be a housewife,because she doesn’t want that for herself. But had she remained back home, this would never

have been an idea she would have had. She would have graduated college then got married, and

the whole degree was for

nothing.

Noemi: But what is your relationship to… How would you describe your relationship to other

females? you have friends that are females?

Khidar: Yes, I do. I have friends that are females. Have close friends that are females. I have best

friends that are females, and we interact normally. I don’t see them any different than I would see

any of my male friends honestly, which compared to when I first moved. Here is a very big

radical shift, because initially I was very, very seldom interacting with females at all. In fact,

many of them had to, sort of, I don’t say, force themselves to be my friends. But I was so against

it to my core that I didn’t want to engage with them, even as something as going to gym together,

or something like that, to gym class, rather. And now, as an adult, it sees I see it as very normal.

And in fact, I kind of look back on myself with a little bit of shame, I think maybe for having

those ideas.

Noemi: What about, your inner values on that like subject? Would you be comfortable if

someone described you as feminine, or is there something that you really not like?

Khidar: That’s interesting? I never thought of that. Actually, I don’t know how I would feel about

it. If someone ever did describe me as feminine, I wouldn’t take it in a bad way. I think I would

probably ask for elaboration, if I have to be honest with you, because I’ve never been described

that way. It would maybe confuse me for a little bit, but it wouldn’t offend me. I’ll just be

perplexed as to what they may have perceived to be that thing, not that there’s anything wrong

with it, but it but it would definitely shock me, because I’ve never been described that way

ever

Noemi: But would you feel that much questioning if someone simply discouraged you as

masculine?Khidar: I would also ask, at least in my case, I would also ask, I would also ask why to a lesser

extent, however, I will admit to a lesser extent, I would be less questioning of it, but I would still

ask, okay, what did you perceive as masculine. I don’t see myself as neither too masculine or too

feminine. I just see myself as myself. So it’s hard for me to kind of gauge it and see, okay, am I

being too masculine, am I being too feminine? You can’t be either or to an extent. Everybody is a

bit of both, I think. Some people do things a certain way that may be perceived as feminine,

whereas some people do things that are perceived as masculine—some more than others. But I

think everybody is more fluid than they realize, at least in what they like to do.

Noemi: Well, on that note, what is your perspective on misogyny and sexism—not just in

Lebanon, but in general?

Khidar: I think it’s—we touched on this a little bit earlier. I think it’s more subtle in the United

States. You have to kind of look for it, but it’s definitely there for sure. Even something like the

wage gap. Granted, women are allowed to work more liberally here. It’s also tricky because I’ve

only known one woman who was the CEO that I worked for—Walgreens. She had to sacrifice

raising a family to become a CEO, and that’s exactly what everybody would say behind her back

in any meeting we had. Whereas any CEO I’ve worked with from other companies were always

[male], successful, with large families—and that kind of goes hand in hand together. Whereas

she was seen as someone who was cold-hearted, quote-unquote, for making a choice to never

have kids of her own to be successful in her career, when in reality, she was just as qualified as

everybody else, but she was unfortunately shoehorned into this role where she had to be

perceived as someone who sacrificed to gain the position that she was in. It’s more subtle here,

for sure. I’ve only had a handful of female managers in the jobs that I’ve worked. And granted, at

the job where I work now, there’s a far more present female workforce than there was in any

other career. And it’s admirable, honestly, because they’re just as hardworking as the guys, if not

more so. They’re more headstrong. They’re able to assume just as much responsibility. In fact,

unless you see them in person, you would never assume one thing about them or the other.

They’re just working as hard as the guys.

Noemi: Can you elaborate on what field you work in?

Khidar: I work at a language school. It’s the opposite for once I’m one of maybe three male

managers—maybe down to two right now. But it’s interesting to see it because initially it comes

off as, I don’t want to say odd, but definitely unique compared to everywhere else I’ve worked.But it’s inspiring.

Noemi: Okay. But who’s the CEO?

Khidar: The CEO is actually a guy! He’s male, and he hired mostly male staff around him, I

believe.

Noemi: So, would you say—because I think we talked about—you had a principal that was a

woman when you were younger?

Khidar: Yeah, still in middle school.

Noemi: Which I do think is very rare and impressive. But I’ve heard this theory that sometimes

in schools, the principals are mostly men and then a lot of the teachers are women, but their boss

is the principal. So it’s kind of like in the school that you work in—do you think that applies?

That a lot of the women that work FOR this man are women, and they do a lot of work more than

a man would be expected to do?

Khidar: Absolutely. I work for a school, and the highest-ranking female there is a woman who

still answers to the CEO. He has the final say across the board, no matter what. It’s not even up

for debate. And even if her opinion is correct, objectively his is seen as superior because he’s the

CEO. A lot of times she makes judgment calls that were legitimate and fair because she’s facing

the staff and students daily, whereas he’s more remote and removed. But he’s kind of set in one

specific worldview and doesn’t deviate. And granted, a lot of the female staff—maybe because

they’re foreigners— they don’t question his authority either. He’s kind of seen as the last word.

Noemi: Do you think, in your experience, when you went to school here, that was also prevalent

in public schools?

Khidar: In high school here, yes. For example, when we went to gym class in Chelsea Piers, the

girls were expected to do track or something like that, whereas the guys were in the batting cages

doing “guy things.” The staff was mixed, which was good, but mostly male-heavy. I think I had

a total of four female teachers I interacted with; the rest were all men.

Noemi: Did you see any difference—as far as expectations?

Khidar: Yes, actually. One of the female teachers I had was a younger lady from California. She

had just moved to New York for that year, and she taught sociology. She was very headstrong

because she grew up in Japan and on the West Coast. She didn’t have the same ideals as

everyone else. But she was admonished for being late even a few minutes by the principal,whereas any of the guys would come in 30 minutes to an hour late, and it wasn’t an issue. She

eventually felt really frustrated because she realized he was treating her differently because she

was a woman—but she couldn’t outright prove it because she was new. She thought it was

hazing because she was new and he had tenured teachers.

Noemi: It was sort of a microaggression ?

Khidar: It’s true. She ended up resigning a year later because she specifically told me she

couldn’t handle dealing with him anymore. He was so aggressive in her face. He would never

talk down to male teachers the way he did to her, in front of the class.

Noemi: I was going to ask—not just in school, but in any other jobs you worked—did you see a

difference in how men and women were expected or allowed to express themselves?

Khidar: Yeah. I worked for GNC early on. There was one female manager who could never work

with male staff members. She literally had to transfer them out of stores because they refused to

listen to her. They’d say, “I’m not taking orders from a woman,” or make aggressive sexual

comments to her face. She was forced to transfer all the guys out and hire female staff instead,

because they were willing to listen and work hard. Even if a guy hadn’t said something to her,

her trauma was so intense that she couldn’t work with them. Which was unfortunate because she

was a good manager.

Khidar: I worked with her one day when she was shifting staff around because she took over the

store I worked in, she could not work with men. Every single male staff member told her, “I’m

not taking orders from a woman, you come pack the shelves out.” They were disobedient. But

with their previous male manager, Joseph, they would never even think of doing that.

Noemi: Is that gender expectation something you noticed, or only after we talked about it?

Khidar: I may have noticed and pushed it back. But in everyday life, women are treated

differently—even at my job. I can’t count how many times people refused to listen to a female

manager and asked for her boss or asked for me. Then I’d tell them the exact same information,

and suddenly they’d accept it because they heard it from a man. Or when my coworkers had to

be firm, they’d be perceived as emotional or “on their period.” Whereas they were literally just

doing their job. They face a higher wall than me, who can just say one or two words and get the

same response.

Noemi: Do you think there are higher expectations for women to not just work harder than menbut also keep it “together” more?

Khidar: Absolutely. They’re expected to be less “emotional” because everyone assumes that by

default. It’s an unfortunate expectation because it’s incorrect. I know men who can be just as

volatile and emotional as women. But women are cast in that role, so they have to be more

professional, always smiling—while men can have any attitude and it’s seen as a “guy thing.”

Noemi: So, considering it’s so ingrained, do you think people hold these expectations because of

how they were raised, or as a decision?

Khidar: Both. In Lebanon there’s no debate—you conform. Here, you can debate it, but even if

you call someone out for discriminating, you’ll never prove it sometimes. And sometimes they

retaliate against you for speaking up. So you’re forced to resign or you’ll never move up.

Noemi: You are saying speaking about it makes it difficult?

Khidar: Absolutely!

Noemi: Do you think if a woman complains in a workplace it’s taken as seriously as if a man

complains?

Khidar: No, not at all. Women can send beautifully written emails about issues—it never

changes sometimes unless a man chimes in. Back home it’s worse. My mother once got into a

car accident where she was T-boned, the car hit her from the side which meand it was literally

not her fault. But because she was a woman and the other driver was a man, they took his

testimony over hers. It really hurt her because she knew the guy and she trusted him. Instead of

admitting fault, he doubled down and said, “She’s a woman, she’s a bad driver.” And it made her

look inferior. Eventually she just accepted it. She said, “Okay, it is what it is. I’m just the bad

driver.” She knew there was no argument—every man’s word was against hers.

Noemi: Do you think younger generations are challenging these views? Or this attitudes on

gender roles?

Khidar: In the United States, yes. In Lebanon, it depends where. In modernized cities, for sure

still less than in the U.S. Growing up, there was no debate. Now, because of social media and

media in general, people are more open-minded. Back then they were stuck in a fishbowl, only

interacting with each other.Now that fishbowl has expanded, they’re saying maybe there is more

out there than we realize.

Noemi: That leads me to another question—how do you think media/social media shapesperceptions of gender roles?

Khidar: It can be good or bad. Sometimes it reinforces the negative parts. For instance, one of the

biggest Instagram/TikTok influencers from Lebanon is a woman who cooks for her family. She’s

seen as “just a chef,” expected because she’s a woman. Meanwhile, one of the biggest male

influencers is a comedian—he does minimal effort compared to what she does, yet he has the

same followers in half the time. I actually know a female comedian who works with him, but she

has a fraction of his following. She’s far more talented, a mime and ventriloquist,theater actress,

he is just a comedian but because she’s a woman, she’s seen as odd. Social media could reinforce

good one or bad ones that. Even recently, in Dearborn, people used social media to organize

burning Pride flags during Pride Month. So it can spread both progress and regression.

Noemi: Do you guys have figures and podcaster like Andrew Tate influencing gender roles in

Lebanon?

Khidar: There might be, but I don’t know them. But Andrew Tate himself was popular back

home. Even in my own family, he was seen as this alpha male figure. Because every guy wants

to drive a Bugatti, smoke a cigar, and have women around their arms—that was projected as the

correct viewpoint. He was seen as a role model. Which is unfortunate, because he’s a terrible

role model. For younger generations who don’t know better, it reinforces the worst parts of rigid

gender roles. They need better influences than him. I firmly disagree with his viewpoints.

Noemi: How have these conservative values affected your life, and how did those experiences

play a role in who you are now?

Khidar: When I was younger, they definitely stunted me emotionally. I was exposed to only one

form of interaction—with males. I wasn’t allowed to interact with females. For four years I went

to a very strict Islamic school where we were separated at all times. Some women were very

smart, but you’d never know it unless you snuck in a conversation or read one of their essays.

That affected me negatively. Thankfully I moved here young enough to redeem myself. I was

able to interact with brilliant women who impacted me positively. Many were scholarship

holders in my high school. Back home, they wouldn’t even be given the time of day.

Noemi: Did that affect your life? Your mentality? Your mental health?

Khidar: Yeah, it took me a while to mature emotionally. I was intimidated of doing something

wrong to women, always told women were lesser, weaker, not as smart. That they were volatile

emotionally, you never know when they can snap at you. It’s not true at all—but until youexpose yourself to other people, you don’t know. I have cousins nearly 40 who still refuse to

interact with women at all. They see themselves as having nothing to gain from interacting with

someone like that. They think women serve three purposes: cook, clean, and have kids. They

hinder themselves without realizing it, but they think they’re right. To them, avoiding

“westernized” women is morally upright.

Noemi: There’s something called benevolent misogyny, that happens to people that grew up in

specially conservative environments—where people preserve a little misogyny without seeing it

as such. They think they’re protecting or providing for women. Or they see them as someone

who is fragile and themselves as a gentleman. Do you think you have any of that?

Khidar: That’s interesting—I’ve never thought about that. When I was younger, definitely. In my

early 20s I wanted to “protect women” and do the honorable thing. Hold doors, things like that. I

think it’s still around, but for different reasons now. I hold doors out of politeness, not because I

think women are weak. But my mother raised me that way, ummm I never really thought of that.

That’s a very interesting point. I didn’t even know it was a thing, honestly, until this

conversation.

Noemi: It’s a thing… because you don’t- well you wouldn’t see it as that. You’re not

consciously looking down on them . It’s just that you think you should do that because you think

they need but the underlying reason, even if unconscious, is the belief women are weaker and

need taking care of.

Khidar: True. That’s for sure a viewpoint I held when I was younger. Absolutely. I wouldn’t

deny that, because now that I’ve realized it, it’s, I can’t deny it’s something I actively did, even if

it was unconscious, it’s interesting because I think my mother raised me to do that where she was

like, you have to take care of the quote unquote take care of the weaker gender. The other side of

the coin is, it also forces men into a role they might not want—taking care of someone they may

not want to. What if they want to be taken care of? I never thought of that.

Noemi : That’s the thing that some people are doing it because they innately want to do that or

sometimes it’s an ingrained value into them that they think in order to be a righteous men or good

men in the society, you need to be doing things like that.Khidar: For sure, I held that viewoint when I was younger. But yes, when I was younger, I held

that viewpoint. Now, I do it out of kindness, not gender.

Noemi: Do you think this topic is talked about enough? Do you believe it could change in your

culture if it were talked about more?

Khidar: It’s not talked about enough at all in my community or culture. If it were, maybe. But

these ideals have been held for hundreds of years. I doubt they’d deviate. And Lebanon is still far

more open-minded than most Middle Eastern countries. Still, in the south, remote from the

capital, it’s very difficult. In the capital, exposed to diversity, you can discuss it. Like the capital

for sure, you can discuss it because they’re exposed to different religions, different communities,

different outlooks. So they would for sure be more open-minded to discuss it. A lot of times

that’s why people escape to cities to avoid gender rules.

Noemi: If you sat someone from your village down and explained equality, would there be any

change?

Khidar: They’d tell you they already treat women equally. They’d say, “Of course women are

equal—we have the same eyes, hands, feet.” But they’d see letting women be wives as doing

right by them, as “helping them achieve their destiny.” They’d think you’re wrong for

questioning them.

Noemi: So they truly see it as a favor?

Khidar Absolutely. They’re doing you a favor in the women themselves in many cases, we also

see it that way. And many women themselves would agree, saying they like being wives and

mothers. They see it as an honorable role. My two friends who didn’t want to marry at 18 and

wanted college were seen as weird, outcasts, because their “biological clock” was ticking.

Noemi: Okay. Thank you.

Khidar: You’re welcome.